An Ironman’s Recovery: When “Good Enough” Is Not
Listen to the complete 1-1 conversation with Ashley & Jake McWink. It begins just a few minutes after the chat began. Enjoy!
It’s easy to look at Ashley and be dazzled – an avid Ironman triathlete and mother of two – one may assume that her stroke in 2019 proved but a minor bump in a rich life. Ashley walked out of the hospital passing all their PT/OT tests, no overtly massive deficits, basically “cleared” the few days after her stroke. By most medical standards, that’s a dream scenario—no protracted rehab, no wheelchair, mainly just some speech therapy. Yet the deeper reality, which she shared with me over a long, heartfelt chat, reveals how “good enough” on paper might still leave you wrestling with hidden hardship for months, years, or even decades after a stroke.
Quick Victories, Subtle Struggles
Right from the start, Ashley noted how she could walk, run, and handle those big, obvious tasks right away—practically “out of the gate,” as she put it. But the smaller pieces were trickier: the way she might completely lose a simple word like “shoe” mid-sentence, or how her coordination in swimming felt slightly off, almost imperceptible to onlookers but jarringly real to her.
It’s that mismatch—passing the hospital’s go-home tests, yet stumbling over everyday details—that can be so mentally exhausting. When the world around you thinks you’re “fine,” but you’re still grappling with daily mental lapses or slower thinking times, you can start questioning your own sanity. Ashley’s biggest frustration arose from this gray zone: no formal rehab was offered because she ticked all the boxes, but her brain was still short-circuiting at random intervals.
The Long Tail of Recovery
In recounting her rehabilitation milestones, Ashley described a timeline that challenges the standard assumption many of us hold: that you’re “recovery” may land within 12 to 24 months. She resumed “life” in just a few weeks after the stroke—quite an accomplishment. But she was still noticing hiccups in daily life, mental fog, an exhaustion beyond description that sleep could hardly touch, or missing puzzle pieces in her cognition that refused to align. She pushed herself athletically, too, returning to triathlons and ultimately an Ironman, but each race felt like a struggle where she battled her own brain more than the course itself.
It was only five years after her stroke that Ashley felt truly, undeniably “herself” again. Think about that for a second: five years of forging ahead, chasing incremental progress, and grappling with the sneaky mind games a stroke can dish out. She calls it “the long tail,” referencing how stroke recovery can drag on far beyond the typical medical disclaimers. And for all of us with direct or indirect experience, that’s a sobering but necessary reminder: you’re allowed to need more time—and that doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong.
Enter Microdosing: “Okay… Sign Me Up.”
Here’s the twist in Ashley’s story: even though she “seemed fine,” she still wanted to see if she could recapture more of what she’d lost. Eventually, microdosing showed up on her radar. She admitted she wasn’t naturally a “dig deeper” kind of person—in her words, “I’m not typically one to question much; I just go with what doctors say.” But a conversation with me about what psilocybin microdosing could potentially do for neuroplasticity and overall brain wellness sparked her curiosity.
Sure, she’d heard the cautionary tales: “drugs are bad,” “mushrooms are scary,” etc. But as Ashley pointed out, fear of psychedelics often comes from outdated, sensationalized notions. She started reading about how microdosing can be gentler. “Heck, you could do more damage with a single shot of tequila” drawing an important comparison to something that’s woven into Western society. That realization flipped her perspective. If the worst that could happen was it might do nothing, why not give it a shot?
Overcoming Internal and External “Attack Vectors”
While she overcame internal hurdles regarding microdosing, she still faced skepticism in this path. Ashley mentioned her husband’s initial discomfort with psychedelics. He understandably was worried about the unknown: “Are you really in control? What about that time some guy in a movie jumped off a roof?!” For many of us, that’s the kind of external pushback we brace for—family, friends, or even medical professionals uneasy about psychedelics’ reputation.
But Ashley’s approach was open and systematic: she explained the protocol, shared research, and reinforced that microdosing, by definition, is sub-perceptual (i.e., you’re not “high”). His concerns stemmed from wanting her safe, so once he saw she was feeling stable—and actually sleeping better—his worries started to fade. If you’re considering microdosing for stroke recovery, Ashley suggests you gather facts, be transparent with loved ones, and remind yourself that fear often shrinks in the face of accurate information.
Sleep: The Unsung Hero
So what tangible difference did microdosing make for Ashley? Above all else, it gave her better, deeper sleep. That might sound underwhelming at first—like we want to hear about overnight miracles or leaps in speech function. But if you’ve wrestled with stroke-induced fatigue or mental fog, you know what a game-changer a solid night’s rest can be. As her protocol continued, she noticed her sleep improved markedly for a night or two. By the third night, she felt it wearing off, so she’d redose according to schedule. “Just a little hug for my brain. Just like, hey you can rest. You’re safe.“ She never felt any overt psychedelic effects, just a steadiness and clarity that good rest can bring.
And improved sleep can cascade into better daytime focus, more energy for physical therapy, and a brighter mood overall—none of which will magically “cure” a stroke, but can make the relentless climb back toward normalcy just a little easier.
Ketamine and the Notion of Hope
Ashley also tried ketamine therapy (intramuscular injections) sometime later, initially aiming to tackle depression that worsened after her stroke. Ketamine, she says, introduced her to the concept of an infinitely expansive mind—an interior space that kept unfolding, offering perspective beyond her immediate challenges. She didn’t call it a silver bullet, but the experience lit a spark of hope, reminding her that the human brain has extraordinary capacity for adaptation and healing.
That sense of hope might be the most crucial aspect. As she put it, “If you don’t have hope, you’re done.” Psychedelics—whether it’s psilocybin, ketamine, or another substance in the pipeline—can sometimes reignite that hope, allowing people to keep trying, keep exploring, and stay open to possibilities that standard medical channels often overlook.
Advocacy, Self-Advocacy, and the Roadblocks
One vital thread in Ashley’s story is self-advocacy. She encountered doctors who dismissed her concerns or, bizarrely, criticized how she’d already been treated back in Iowa. That collision between her deep trust in medical professionals and the harsh reality of human error left her reeling. Ultimately, though, it empowered her to speak up, switch specialists when she felt unheard, and actively seek out alternative solutions like microdosing.
Ashley’s message: if you’re a stroke survivor who “passes” a standard exam but still feels off, speak up. If you’re told, “You’re good,” and you know you’re not, keep asking, keep pushing, keep looking for solutions that go beyond checklists. Sometimes, especially for younger stroke survivors (or older folks who get dismissed), the journey includes exploring novel therapies like psychedelics in safe, research-informed contexts.
The Downside of Seeming “Fine”
One of the most poignant parts of our talk was Ashley describing how passing for normal can actually be isolating. No one knows you’re fighting these internal battles with memory, language, or mood. It’s easy to fall through the cracks because on the outside, you’re “back to life,” and that can be a pretty lonely place. If you’ve felt that same invisible struggle, trust me: you’re not alone, and your frustration is valid.
Looking Ahead: Psychedelics, Research, and Ongoing Support
Ashley’s experience underscores a real need for more stroke-specific research into psychedelics—psilocybin, ketamine, and beyond. If these substances can truly enhance neuroplasticity or speed up the brain’s ability to reroute pathways, imagine the impact on stroke survivors worldwide. But the official science is still catching up. We need clinical trials, observational studies, and long-term data to map out best practices. And we need open-minded medical professionals who don’t immediately clamp down on the notion of “mushrooms for stroke patients.”
Meanwhile, Ashley encourages fellow survivors to “talk to people who’ve actually done this.” Read success stories, ask about the pitfalls and disclaimers, and decide if microdosing is something that aligns with your goals. You won’t find a one-size-fits-all approach here, but that’s true for most stroke rehab modalities.
Five years after her stroke, Ashley found herself navigating a subtle but stubborn gap between what her doctors saw and how she truly felt. “They were like, yep, you’re good,” she recalled. Even though she could “walk, run, jump,” and manage day-to-day tasks “right out of the gate,” Ashley struggled with finer coordination and finding simple words. At one point, she remembers trying to recall the word for shoe: “I was like, you know that thing you put your foot in?... It’s a fucking shoe. I can’t do that.” For anyone else, it might look like she was healed, but inside, Ashley knew her brain was still recovering.
Disclaimer: This information is for educational purposes only. This account is not condoning or encouraging the use of illicit substances. It is recommended you follow all laws applicable to your jurisdiction. The information is based on medical and scientific evidence, which is limited but growing. The information may change as research evolves. It should not be construed as medical advice or medical clearance. Always follow the advice and direction of your healthcare provider(s). Do not attempt to stop or make changes to your medications or care plans on your own, as this can be dangerous. Be advised there can be many other factors that contribute to your overall risks of using psilocybin mushrooms or other psychedelics that should be considered in addition to interactions with your medications or health conditions. The creators of this account and its content are not responsible or liable for any damage you may suffer resulting from any outcomes related to its use.
Below is a full and complete transcript of our conversation:
Ashley: So the day of or the next day, PT, OT, and there was another therapy that came in too that they all were like, yep, you're good. Like I could do all the things I could, I mean, even now, like I'm still, and that could just be because I'm right-handed, but yeah, I passed all the tests, like day of or next day, whenever the person had time to come in. So I never was prescribed any OT, PT, the, what I did for physical therapy was on my own. I've got a wonderful physical therapist. She's cash only, but she's phenomenal. And we worked a lot of like cross-body stuff to like reintegrate that way. But like I could walk, I could run, I could jump, I could, the coordination of certain movements wasn't necessarily as tight as it used to be.
Jake: Okay.
Ashley: And I'm still working on stuff even to this day, but it's more with my activities like swimming and so like day-to-day tasks, I could do those right out of like-
Jake: Right out of the gate.
Ashley: Right out of the gate, yeah.
Jake: Like the big stuff you had down. But then there were smaller pieces that all of a sudden maybe you noticed were no longer there that other people wouldn't have been able to detect.
Ashley: Yep, absolutely. So those have been the more frustrating pieces. As far as like speech therapy, I would forget words. I couldn't find words, like easy words like a shoe. I remember saying to somebody once, like I couldn't think of shoe, and I was like, you know that thing you put your foot in?And then it's like, it's a fucking shoe. I can't do that. And that doesn't happen quite as often anymore.
And now I might attribute it to like Perimetapause.
Because I'm getting up to be that age.But that was a new thing for me at that time to like literally like just not have the easiest words just roll off your tongue.
Jake: Yes.
Ashley: But as far as like speaking, I could speak fine.
Jake: Yeah. Were there any like significant milestones in your, I guess, recovery? Like were there any moments where it was like, okay, like I feel like I'm back. Did anything like that ever occur?
Ashley: Um, only so my very first, I do triathlons. So, and so stroke was in 19, 2019. The world shut down in 2020 for COVID. So like all of my normal activities that I would do were not available to me. I did start, so I would say there are incremental ones along the way. So stroke was August 24th. I came back to teach my cycle class at the beginning of October. So that I would say was one.
Jake: Okay.
Ashley: Then my first race that I was able to do was a sprint triathlon at Lookout Mountain was September of 2020.
Jake: Okay.
Ashley: That was like the only race in Colorado that year.
Jake: So like 13 months later, you were able to get back into a triathlon.
Ashley: A short distance.
Jake: A sprint triathlon.
Ashley: Yes. Oh geez, May of 2021 was my first long one. So I would say that that was a good, so like a half, so a 70.3. So not like an Ironman, but a half Ironman. So that there was just like, okay, I covered the distance. I can still do this. I didn't, I wasn't fast, but I could do it. Then in June of 2022, I did my first full Ironman afterward.
Jake: Okay. So like 20 months later.
Ashley: And then this year in October, so five years and like two months later, I did another Ironman and it felt good. Like I was finally able to mentally, physically, and emotionally train for an Ironman. Like all my capacities were finally, like we, like here we go. We're all on board for this experience. And so this year was the first year I felt like I was back.
Jake: I think that is so important because we were talking earlier about like implied social structures or things like that. And I think there just is this implication that you're going to be recovered within a relatively short timeframe, even, you know, 18 to 24 months. And that doesn't seem to be accurate at all.
Ashley: No. That- You can still do the thing.
Jake: The long tail is incredibly long.
Ashley: Yeah. You can still do the thing. I still did the triathlon.
Jake: Sure.
Ashley: But it didn't feel, still felt like just things were fight. Like, I felt like I was still fighting myself a little bit. But yeah, yeah, for sure. I would have thought, oh yeah, I'll be, you know. Oh yeah. They had the clot out within 90 minutes. I'll be, it's fine. You know, it wasn't fine.
Jake: It wasn't fine at all.
Ashley: It wasn't fine. It wasn't fine. And you know, that's the thing you like, that you don't know when you're going to be fine again. And you know, there were moments of fine throughout. Like, okay, today felt good. Or that five minutes felt good. Or like, but to have consistent fineness, not until five years, five years. Yeah.
Jake: So part of, there's a lot of work that goes into like getting to that fineness and like getting that together. And so one component to like your recovery was beginning to like look at something like microdosing. And I would just be curious, like what was that like potential internal motivation to begin looking at that or exploring that? Was that related to trying to work on some of these details? Like what was that for you?
Ashley: So I didn't have any idea about any of this until we had coffee.
Jake: Until you and I connected.
Ashley: Yep.
Jake: Okay.
Ashley: I’m not, by nature, I am not an asker of questions. I am not a dig deeper. I am not a, I don't, I'm not happy here. I'm going to figure out a different, like, I just, this is okay. Well, this is what you told me. This is what it is. This is, this is okay. I guess I'll work with what I see, what I know. I'll work with, and I would love to be different than that. And I'm working toward asking questions and being more proactive when it comes to things that maybe seem like it could be better. But like, because I was good enough, I was fine enough, I didn't have huge deficits or huge struggles. I wasn't looking for more necessarily.
But when we first met and had those discussions and just the things you were telling me about, like what the, what the microdosing can do and how it can open up things that have been either blocked or shut down or whatever the case may be, it was like, well, yeah, sign me up for that. What, like, why wouldn't, why wouldn't I? Like, what's the worst that's going to happen? You know, I get a little, like, what's the worst that's going to happen?
Like, it just seemed like so obvious to me that this is something that I should at least try, you know, and I grew up in the, in the Midwest where, you know, oh, don't do, don't do drugs, say no to drugs. There was definitely a piece of me that was like, oh my gosh, it's mushrooms. What, like, oh, the scary, the scary mushroom. And, but it's like, yeah. So there, there's definitely a piece of that, like, okay, let's just, that's there.
We can acknowledge that that belief system is there. That's all it is, is a belief system. And then we can actually talk to someone who's actually experienced it instead of listening to all these voices who have listened to whatever, read, listened to whatever propaganda was put out there 50 years ago to scare people away from what exactly? So why don't we talk to people, to someone who's had this experience, and like, that's got to hold some weight.
And who's had these results, and who's had just this turnaround of, not just like symptom improvement, but just this quality of life that couldn't have existed otherwise. And if I can have even just a small sliver of this success that Jake had, like, fuck yeah, like sign me up. Sign me up! So that was, I mean, you had me at hello.
Jake: I really appreciate the way that you kind of framed and articulated that there also existed like this internal resistance that you were facing, do you mean in terms of like the belief systems of like drugs are bad, like part of your upbringing, there's been information around that kind of was potentially designed to turn people away from these. And you had to do sort of some internal soul searching to recognize that and actively choose against that or despite those in existence.
And that is, I think it's important to like not diminish how significant of a hurdle that is, doing the internal component. So you had internal resistance, but then did you also, like in parallel face any, external resistance towards going down this path? And if so, like, what was that? What did it look like?
Maybe where were those like attack vectors for lack of a better word coming from? Like, what was that for you?
Ashley: So the biggest one was my husband. Same situation, like drugs are bad. Like, must like, oh, you know, psychedelics, like, are you gonna be able to, like, are you in control? Like, he's very much like, the unknown is scary. And when all you've known is like you see people who are high on some kind of psychedelic in the movies, or you hear about them, oh, they jumped off a roof because they thought they could fly. Well, that was also like 100,000 times what I would be dosing, you know, maybe obviously not that much, but like, the dosing is significantly different.
So, same, similar resistances were within him because like, drugs are bad, you know? So, basically just letting him know, hey, this is information, I'm doing this, I just wanted to let you know I was doing it. Do you have any questions? And because this is my body and I feel very strongly about, like I said, if this can help me even a little bit, I'm doing it, you know? And it's, his resistance came from his concern for my health and safety, which I appreciate.
And at the same time, like, we had laid out protocols, we had like, knew what was in every capsule that I was going to be taking. Like, it was very, the information was right there. And then also, not only telling him about your experience, but just like experiences in general with whatever we had found with microdosing and even macrodosing, you know? And just reading about how they demonized these substances in the past and the reason why they demonized them and like, how unfair it was to just group all of these as like, anything at an excess can be bad for you.
Jake: Totally, yes.
Ashley: So, one milligram of psilocybin, I mean, I could do more damage with one shot of tequila. Like, if we're being honest. So.
Jake: You and me both.
Ashley: Yeah, yeah. And so then just being communicative with him, like, hey, I took my psilocybin today. Well, how did you feel? How did you feel? I'm like, I felt nothing. Like, I'm literally fine. I slept better. That was like, the biggest benefit for me. And this may be a question we'll get to. But yeah, like, the sleep for me was the biggest thing. Like, I slept so much better for like, that night and then the night after. And then I could tell by the third night, it had diminished. So, I think, obviously, every two to three days you're dosing. But yeah, and as we know, sleep is like, huge for brain recovery and healing and things like that. And just, like, day-to-day wellness and keeping yourself sane.
Jake: Yeah. Yeah, if I have terrible sleep, then the whole day is fucked.
Ashley: Yeah.
Jake: I think that's the case for everyone. So, having like, really good sleep makes a huge difference. Because then, yeah, then it also just, it gives your body the space that it needs to do whatever it is that it needs doing. Was there anything in addition to feeling like you had really deep sleeps that kind of you noticed in terms of that? Or is that really the most important and kind of only piece of the impact that this had, just in your experience?
Ashley: Yeah, I didn't really notice anything with like, coordination, you know. Speech, my, I would say my memory, too, wasn't great. Like, short-term, it was harder to hang onto some certain information sometimes. Or like, I couldn't, you could ask me what I did, you know, hey, what'd you do at noon today? I had no idea what I did earlier today, without looking at my calendar and seeing what I did. So I would say, to the extent that sleep helps with those things, yes. But on their own, I didn't notice a huge difference. Maybe small, but I, nothing that I would be like, oh my gosh, yes, I noticed this change, you know, so.
Jake: So it seemed like, really, the impact that sleep had, then there were downstream benefits, just simply from the improved sleep component. And that that would be the most reasonable way to attribute any potential impact thereof.
Ashely: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jake: Were there any other, like, psychedelics that you leveraged in your recovery? And did those provide any benefit for you?
Ashley: So in December of 2023, so last year, I did, I went to a ketamine clinic.
Jake: Okay.
Ashley: Here in Westminster, and their protocol was two times a week for three weeks. And they would go through and find your, increasing your dose throughout each of those sessions, and then maintenance after that. Extending the time between sessions, they don't want, it's not something that you continue.
Jake: You do it in the long run.
Ashley: Right, right.
Jake: There's just, like, an acute period where you're doing that work.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.And that was, so after my stroke, I probably always had it to some level, but depression was, had it, I don't know what you, like, I was diagnosed with it. So I was in therapy, like, once a week for that. Like, once a week for that. So my therapist had recommended ketamine as a treatment option for me. It took me four years to do it, because of just availability. She hadn't recommended it until maybe, like, early in 2023.
Jake: Okay.
Ashley: So anyway, got that squared away, and so, yes, to answer your question, ketamine injections, intramuscular injections, there's different ways you can do it, but I had the injections.
Jake: IM, yep.
Ashley: Yep. And the last time I did that was... April. Yeah, man, wow, where's time going? This last April was my last one that I had done.
Jake: So, just if I'm understanding correctly, like, there sort of always has been a baseline of depression, do you, that just has been, that you've just been kind of carrying, and then do you feel that the event with the stroke changed the trajectory and amplified the depression? Like, does it feel related to the stroke, or just by happenstance?
Ashley: I think by happenstance.
Jake: Okay.
Ashley: I had, I would, I, in Iowa, I felt like I received excellent care.
Jake: Yeah.
Ashley: When I got out here, this store, I do not feel like I received excellent care. Like, I went to my cardiologist, because they fixed my heart in Iowa, so I went to my cardiologist out here, and he was like mad that they fixed my heart. He was like, well, they should have just put you on a heart rate monitor and monitored you for a month to see if it was related to AFib. And I was like, what, like, does not compute? Like, they fixed, but they fixed the problem. Like, why is this a, like, did you want to do it? Like, is this your ego, or is this you actually being concerned for my health and well-being?
Jake: Fascinating.
Ashley: It really seemed like an ego thing to me, that like, he didn't do it, so it was wrong. Which, to me, in my soul, for like, I always assume people have the highest and best interest for me. Because I'm, I'm, I don't know if naive is the right word, or if just like-
Jake: You're deeply trusting.
Ashley: Yes.
Jake: Is how I would interpret that.
Ashley: Yes, I am, I am. Which is what, like, I don't like practical jokes. I don't like, like, I don't, like, that stuff really is like nails on a chalkboard to me. Like, but I trust, like, I trusted you to take care of me, and you didn't. And not only did you not, but then you got mad at me about it.
Jake: Or something that I actually, I didn't actually have any control over. I was just listening to what was being recommended.
Ashley: Well, and they, and you told me that like, you don't do anything about these till something happens. Well, something happened, and the doctor who fixed my heart came back from vacation early to fix my heart. So that was like, care. That was like, care. Like, he took care of me.
Jake: Yes.
Ashley: And then to get back and be like, you did it wrong. I'm like, well, you're a fucker. But, and so, you know, then there were all sorts of lessons like, oh my gosh, I like, I have to, people don't have my highest and best interest in mind. I have to advocate for myself, like. So there was a definite depression over just like, the jolt of like, I just had a huge thing happen, and you could care less about me. Or like, there was an anger, sadness, like all of that. And finding a new doctor immediately. So, what was the question?
Jake: No, just like if, sorry, no, you have two individuals recovering from stroke.
Ashley: Yes.
Jake: I would just be, you nailed that in terms of, I think also, sorry, the question was actually related to the depression, and if that was correlated. Sorry, it took me a second. If it was correlated there. But then, through what you described, you also indicated something that I think is really important in terms of how you had to, the learning of self-advocacy. And absolutely, across the board, generally speaking, doctors do indeed have patient's best interests in mind. And it also exists that even doctors are humans, too.
And therefore, sometimes those decisions or recommendations could be coming from a place that may not have used squarely in terms of care. And through that experience, if I'm understanding correctly, you had to recognize that there's also a component where you need to then advocate for yourself in the context of professional care that, generally speaking, has your best interests in mind, but while understanding that those interests are also human and sometimes can be flawed for whatever contextual reason that could exist for that individual. So, nothing against them, necessarily. Maybe a little bit, maybe a little bit.
Ashley: But the next, my doctor, that was lovely. And he was wonderful. And he had experience with, he had just very recently fixed a PFO of a triathlete in Boulder. Like he was more familiar with people similar to him.
Jake: How these work, yeah. So that, the self-advocacy piece, I think is a really interesting, that's kind of like a lifelong learning or kind of value tool that is, I think, maybe beneficial for a lot of people. Were there any kind of changes in terms of your outlook that you felt was connected to your work with microdosing or psychedelics in general that positively impacted you? Or maybe in this case, not at all. Like what did that, what did that look like for you?
Ashley: So for me, I would say, first off with the psilocybin, the gift that it gave me with sleep and just the ability to allow my brain to just rest, like I just said, it was a gift. That I think so many of us, we don't get good sleep. We like, not only time, but the quality of sleep as well. So that was 100%, just like, just a little like hug to my brain. Just, hey, you can like, you can shut off. You can rest, you can like, it's okay. Like, we've got you. This is, it's good.
And then with the ketamine, it showed me how expansive the brain is. Like there were places I went within myself that were, they just kept going and going and going. It was just like expansive and infinite and just, so it gave me hope that even with the struggles I was still having, there was still that potential for finding my way through. I don't think I can say anymore than that. Like, I feel like that's, yeah.
Jake: I think you've put a perfect bow on that because naturally always the follow on is, why is it important when you have those experiences of this kind of vast internal space or these miraculous, you know, psychedelic experiences, like what is the impact or why is that important that an individual would do that? And I think that you articulated that perfectly in terms of, well, actually the value of that is it gave me hope to then face all of the continuing challenges that will always come our way.
Ashley: You have to have hope. If you don't have hope, then it's done. Then you're done, you're stopped. Yeah.
Jake: Oh my gosh. Ashley, I just, I love chatting with you so much. You're so wonderful. What if somebody was in, you know, a hard position after a stroke, like this, what would your advice or guidance be in terms of recovery who might be seeking alternative therapies, whether it's psilocybin or ketamine or just something that might not be prescribed by say the Western system? What would your advice or guidance be?
Ashley: I would say talk to people who have experience with it. Acknowledge that there are going to be potential resistances within yourself and with the people who love and care about you. Breathe and then trust that this isn't going, like it's not gonna hurt you. Like the worst, the thing is like with this stuff, especially the microdosing, the worst that can happen is it's not going to work.
It's not going to change anything. It's the worst that's gonna happen, truthfully. And the best that can happen is so many things.
Jake: I really love the way that you, I love the way that you framed that, you know, in terms of like, yeah, the worst is that it doesn't work, which is also going to be the case for a lot of people, too. Like everyone's bodies are different and some people are not going to respond well to these two mushrooms relative to others.
To me, it's not that these are inherently dangerous or that there are, you know, physiologically based concerns, you know, because they are, you know, safer than Tylenol, safer than a lot of the medicines that, a lot of the compounds that we accept in daily, alcohol for example, I can do more damage with a tequila shot. But that is an appropriate level of risk that our society is open to.
Ashley: Right, but not a milligram of psilocybin.
Jake: Yeah. So yeah, that's a really interesting insight and kind of way to frame that. You know, if anyone kind of had an opportunity to like hear your story and hear kind of what your journey has been, like what would you hope their takeaway would be from having some insight into your experience? What would you hope that they could benefit from?
Ashley: This is a little depressing, but it's gonna take longer than you think. And that's okay. And rest, rest, rest, rest. If you don't feel like doing something on a day, that's okay, don't do it, don't do it. It's okay. And that if you just keep, every day is another, this sounds so cliche, but like, it's so true. Every day is another day closer to when you're gonna feel better.
And it's true, it's cliche and it like, ugh, you know, I don't, but it's true. And if you need help, you have to ask, because people can't read your mind. If you're tired and you need rest, you have to tell people because they can't read your mind. And if they get mad about that, that, first of all, I'm sorry, that that's your experience, and second of all, like just pull it, like just say, hey, I have a dead brain. Hey, I had a, did you have a stroke? Oh, I did.
Like, I mean, you like, sometimes you just have to be really blunt with people and be prepared to, if they don't understand, sometimes we have to like make them understand.
And sometimes we have to be like, very blunt about it.
Jake: And that is completely acceptable. It's okay.
Ashley: Completely acceptable.
Jake: It's an educational moment because stroke is not something that, especially in younger networks, are familiar with, have seen, or when they have seen it, to your point earlier, it's hitting a set of the population where there's just an inherent understanding that more patience is required to be, because things are moving a little slower.
Ashley: Yeah, yep.
Jake: Which therefore could also, which also kind of makes the problem worse for individuals recovering from stroke who are older, because then the expectations for their recovery are so much lower.
Ashley: So much lower.
Jake: And because they've also gotten to an age where anything they say is dismissed. And that's not doing anyone any favors.
Ashley: No, no.
Jake: Because we need to, we have to listen to what somebody is saying. And regardless of what their age would be, it still is their experience.
Ashley: Yep, yep. Absolutely.
Jake: So I think I've kind of wondered it like, because I just so frequently kind of scratch my head of like, why, why does it feel like there are so few resources, so few options when it comes to stroke recovery? It hits so many people. And it's, you know, almost 800,000 people a year in the United States have a stroke. You know, it's the number four leading cause of death. And when it does come your way, it's so damaging, both physically and mentally. And so like, why, why the fuck is there, why does it feel like there are such few resources relative to say some of the other biggies?
Ashley: Yeah.
Jake: And something I've wondered is, maybe is it because it's predominantly hitting a subset of the population that unfortunately, or for whatever reason, our society tends to write off and has begun to ignore?
Ashley: Yeah.
Jake: You know, we have a, we have a society of old people, we don't have a society of elders. And it seems like that's because we just have stopped listening to our elders and turn them into old people. You know what I mean? I know that sounds kind of conspiratorial or something like that, I've just been trying to figure out what is going on here. This is such a huge thing. And we need to figure out kind of some ways to help improve this.
Ashley: Well, I think part of that is just societal with our sense of community. And we don't have the communities like we used to have where information was passed down generationally. You know, it's just how society has shifted. And now we don't take care of our elders, we send them to nursing homes. We like, also, also people are living longer. So that, whereas like if your elders used to die in their 60s, now they're dying in their 80s. Like that's an additional burden on caretakers on like, what do you do with that?
Like it's so complicated and so like multifaceted and you know, like I remember going up and staying with my grandparents for like a week in the summertime. My kids haven't been back. They went back to stay maybe a couple times with my parents, but since my mom died, they don't go back there anymore to like, and we hardly ever see my husband's parents. So for those bonds to be made so that we want to continue to care for our elders, stuff's breaking. It's being, things are changing in that way.
So, but yeah, to like, and then like, why we're not like caring for them or like, you know, like the stroke related stuff that you were saying and why we're not, why we're not listening or why, you know, is that a fault of the healthcare system? Is that a fault of the younger generations for not helping advocate? Like, I mean, it could be for all of those reasons or none of those reasons, I don't know.
Jake: Right, right. We're just like conjecturing here, right? I think that kind of is an interesting follow-on of like, okay, this is just what the state of affairs is hearing and what's the saying, don't cry over spilled milk or whatever. Well, maybe the milk has been spilled. That's okay. Now we're here to clean, clean it up. And what is it that we can do to, all right, we've figured out there's a potential problem here and let's figure this out.
And so, you know, are there like any, say like research activities or like, is there anything in the future that you see, hope for or want to see research in when it comes to psychedelics and stroke or stroke in anything?
Like, you know, that's kind of a-
Ashley: I mean, obviously I would love to see more with just ongoing care for people and on like resources for people. Because even for me, like I was, I was not dismissed, but like I was cleared. Like, yep, you're good. You can do, you can make mouth movements and you can make your P's and your T's and your K's. Like, I still remember like putika putika, like they made me put those sounds together and like, that's the one that stuck out to me the most. Like, oh, you can do that. Okay, you're good to go. But it's like, no, like my brain died. Like I'm not, I am not good to go. Yes, I can sit on a toilet and wipe my ass and I can walk without falling, but like, I'm not okay. Like I'm not fucking, like help me, you know?
And, but once you pass these certain check marks, okay, you're clear, you're good to go. Anything else is gonna be on you. But they didn't even say that, you know, they're just like, you're good. And thankfully I have the resources to have been able to afford more care, more therapy for myself. Not everybody has that. And so yeah, more research, more just like, even like monthly check-in, you know? Like, oh, hey, do you have any, how are your symptoms?
Are you still experiencing symptoms? What, like, where do you still feel like you have deficits? There was nothing, like I was, I saw my cardiologist for like six months checkup. And that was it, that was it. So again, however, if I had like advocated for myself, I'm sure I could have gotten more, but at that point I was just like, whatever, I'm fine. I'm fine, I don't wanna, yeah, I was just like over it. And again, because of where I came out, I had the luxury of being over it. Like I could just kind of let it go. Not everybody has that option.
As far as like research with psilocybin, I mean, I think sky's the limit with that. I mean, we're trying to make connections, like new neuropathways and like finding out how the brain can either heal itself or find what I just said, better pathways or better like ways to make things work that weren't working after the stroke. And I like, I feel like if there's a way to do that through psychedelics, because they're like, obviously, they're not working on anything with any like mainstream medications or mainstream therapies.
So yeah, like I would be all about that.
Jake: I think there's an interesting thread that you spoke on too, that there's almost this like downside of success. And what I mean by that is you, because you were able to hit those thresholds, hit those check marks that were required for your discharge, because you were able to recover and get to a point where you could pass that, that there's like an unintentional dark side of recovering well, such that then you can also quote pass within society.
So it's not overtly obvious anymore that essentially you had a traumatic brain injury or a significant neurological insult. And so there's like a weird isolation that occurs. There's like a wall that comes up where you're now the only one knows who knows that things are not okay. But the external environment has no fucking clue. And so how easy it is or could be to drop through the floor from that isolation, from that seeming isolation, because nobody realizes what's actually happening inside still for a really long time. And so I also appreciate just kind of your point too, of like, this is gonna take a lot longer than you think. And that's okay, you know, I think it's a lot easier pill to swallow.
I wish that somebody had told me, Jake, like, doesn't matter if you're young, like, doesn't matter who you are, this is a five to 10 year recovery. If you're lucky, this is most likely just a rest of your life recovery. And so be patient, like it'll give yourself a whole hell of a lot more grace than you realize.
Ashley: Yeah, totally agree.
Jake: Ashley, thank you.
Ashley: Thank you.
Jake: It was like really nice to, I know like you and I now have known each other for quite some time. And so it's just also nice to like, just a little refresher too, you know, cause it is something that we covered at the very beginning doing in terms of your experience, but sometimes it's nice to just have those kind of reminders too. And, you know, I just need to express my gratitude and appreciation for you. And the fact that you did trust me or you were willing to go down a path that was remarkably uncertain with somebody as well, who didn't entirely know what he was doing either.
Ashley: You knew and you spoke well enough of it that I was like, oh, this guy, he's an expert.
Jake: I think it's called knowing enough to be dangerous.
Ashley: Yeah. Very influential.
Jake: So like, thank you. And yeah, hopefully, you know, there just will be kind of more opportunities for like other people to potentially benefit from something like this. Obviously, like we talked about for some, for a lot of people, it won't work and that's okay. There are a lot of medications. There are a lot of things out there that work for some people and don't work for others. And so I think you illuminated something really important that we don't place unnecessary expectations on a lot of things that exist within society. So why should this path be treated any different?
And that's potentially the risk that's happening right now with a lot of these breakthrough studies and like a lot of the sort of the hype that's happening around this space. Honestly, it makes me a little concerned because I feel like it is, we're moving into this like overhype territory, which I don't think that's a fair expectation for anything. Like, it's not a silver bullet. These are-
Ashley: Even at that, it's still gonna take time. The benefits will take time. So it's not gonna most likely be an instant thing. It's gonna still be a long game type of a situation.
Jake: Yeah, yeah. Like it's also, yeah, to give these medicines grace in terms of the time horizon that it's not a quick fix. It's not a one and done. This is a tool in conjunction with a whole bunch of other things that are happening. That could potentially help move the needle in a right direction.
And you also illuminated something interesting too, that there's a saying kind of in the psychedelic space a lot of like, that the mushrooms don't give you what you want, they give you what you need. And in this case, it seemed like what you needed was sleep. And they were able to give you that. And that for you in your case was precisely the thing that maybe your body and your experience needed. Like rest.
Ashley: Always need rest, always need rest.
Jake: Well, Ashley, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Ashley: Thanks for having me on the couch today.
Jake: Yeah, who knows, maybe it could be, yeah, we'll have to like figure this out. It could be like quote more formal and not just on a phone, but we're just, we're doing the best we can, you know.
Ashley: Thank you.
Jake: Thank you.
